Some Chicano Activist responded with . . .
Another Chicano Activist added the following
Nope this is not a Basketball themed article. It is a comment on some responses from those of the Chicano Movement and La Raza militants regarding their rip on Kat Williams the comedian for defending himself (and the territorial United States along the way) from a Mexican American in Pheonix Arizona. I promise I'll get back to writing about Basketball when the lock out ends. But the lack of cognitive dissonance from extremist of the Left and Right boggle me.
I'm going to play Devil's advocate. So Kat came out w/ a weak joke about Mexicans. Wasn't funny then some Mexican (Mexican American I suppose) said "Fuck America." Mind you again, a Mexican American Living in the United States. Then adds to it that "all of this (Arizona and the Southwest, I presume) is still Mexico." So Kat goes on a pro American retort. You know what. I would have done the same thing.
Historical fact is that the Southwest was Mexico's at one time and then they lost a war and the Southwest is now part of the United States. What's that have to do with racism or colonialism. I live in this country. I'm a Peruvian American of Quechua Ancestry (and by that I mean I can name the ethnic community I come from which is Quechua speaking, and that community has traditions that predate the Incas). But the U.S. is were I have grown up and developed part of my identity. Can you undo history? Can you win a war you lost? You can continue to declare it by stating "fuck America" or that "all of this is still Mexico." Tell me that's what that Mexican American appeared to be doing.
So Kat comes w/ the current fact that the states of the Southwest are now part of the United States. No longer Mexico's. That's a fact. He lost me with the lines about Mexicans working like slaves as landscapers. That was uncalled for. No one should have to work like slaves in this day in age. An apology there should have been made. Not for defending the territorial U.S. Regardless of the perspective one has about undocumented immigration/illegal immigration (what might have you) it should not ever be the reason to pay working people looking to make a living a subhuman, sub living wage. By law it's not allowed and Employers clearly abuse the status of undocumented/illegal immigrants to that end.
Going forward what does Kat Williams defense of the territoriality of the U.S. have to do with him being infected by the ideology of white supremacy? Defending the territoriality of the U.S. against a Mexican American living in the territorial U.S. saying "FUCK AMERICA" and "THIS IS STILL MEXICO" is being infected by White Supremacy? SERIOUSLY? BLOGGA PUHLEEZE! Step off! It still boggles me that the Far Left, Especially the Chicano Movement/Raza and Open Borders advocates very much like the Ultra Right Wing Christian Fundamentalist continue to demonstrate a lamentable cognitive dissonance between objective and statements (or maybe it belies something that non free thinkers fail to see).
The Ultra right wing Christian Fundamentalist seemingly espouse their closeness to their lord as examples of "God's good word through the Bible" (mind you the good book tells you to "love your neighbor and that greed is not an ideal value). Those Christian Fundamentalist hypocrites then wish ill on non Christian people and Nations. Saying Bullshyt like "the Japanese deserved the Tsunami," "The Gulf Coast deserved Katrina," or that any other non Christian people plagued by strife deserve it b/c they are not Christian and deserve their misery! Deserve their poverty, ad nauseaum.
Latinos affiliated or associated with La Raza, the Chicano/"a" (what have you) movement and open borders advocates love to espouse how the country is a "Nation of Immigrants," that they "love America," that they just wish to "realize the American dream" (funny native born and naturalized Americans are struggling to realize that dream and they've gone through the process of trying to realize that dream to the legit channels offered up by the American nation state). They demand to be part of the Nation state (understandably so since Employers are ass holes who exploit a foreigners lack of status) but BUT then on the other hand these same advocates will talk (almost with a tinge of glee) about the imminent demise of the U.S., say "Fuck America," "this is still Mexico." Many will talk with excitement of the improving prospects for Latin America and then continue to apparently celebrate in the hardships being faced by everyday Americans regardless of race, creed, skin color, national origin. That to me seems inconsistent.
There should be a cognitive dissonance there. Or at least there should be. But neither the Christian right seems to feel that and I wonder if La Raza, Chicano Movement, Open Borders advocates feel that in their conflicting statements. Maybe not? Maybe Weirdo right wing Christian Fundamentalist (like their jihadist counterparts of the Koran) really want the non christian world to suffer? Maybe La Raza, Chicano Movement, Open Borders activist really only love the United States so long as it can do something for them and wish it's demise under their breadth if it can't, all the while being ready and set to move about like mercenaries to the place that can give them what they want?
I am a free thinker non ideologue. Though I am more inclined towards the center left and despise the Rethuglicans and the mockery of democracy that corporations have made through the money greasing and influence peddling of corporate lobbyist that sustain the exclusive privilege social networks that politicians live off of like pariah.
That said unlike the Christian Fundamentalist hypocrites or their far far leftist counterparts of La Raza, the Chicano Movement or Open Borders advocates, I will not wish ill on any nation or people. This world is economically to integrated and fragile now (if a butterfly flutters it's wings in the south pacific). The success of others is part of our cumulative success the failures of others is part of our collective failures as a society and human race.
I support the Latin American left b/c they provide a better development model IMHO than the sellouts that have traditionally governed Latin America and made it almost unlivable for so many pushed to migrate out for a better life. I support reasonable balanced responsible and genuine democracy. I am an American Original, as genuine as the Potato or Quinua grain. I stand by my defense of the U.S. and the self determination of indigenous people and the development of the developing world. I will do my best to not live as a hypocrite. Oh by the way I know who I am and were I came from and my ethnicity and history the labels, like "self hating," "confuse," "racist" etc won't work on me.
But, what is a Celtic fan to do on A Knick blog?! Though, now that I am stuck in the hinterlings of Portland I will follow the Knickerbockers with passion from afar as my second team. Can a Celtic fan truly love a New York team? I have tried to love those Mets, but just can't give it all I've got. I shall though...when Carmelo gets the rock it is hard not to like!
We exist in a moment in time, unless you reject today's physics.The history of mankind is an exercise in the battle between Good vs. Evil.Who are Americans, or Mexicans for that matter?The result of many, many groups of shifting loyalties who have been played against each other by the shrewder manipulations of the more powerful in ANY society.All of us identify ourselves in many groups, family, social, racial, political, etc.but to say we are only Black, Mexican or American denies our basic humanity.The Aztecs conquered the indigenous smaller tribes, the Spaniards conquered the Aztecs and so on.Hopefully, you don't need a lesson in Black history.You might need one in American history.Winners write the history books, but a judicious look at all sources would be eye opening, more likely mind boggling, for us all.I am fighting for THIS?Point is while nationality may be a necessity on some level it is more often a beard to get you to ignore the reality of the past, present and future.You come into this world as an individual and you will leave the same way.Respond to others with that knowledge up front in your conscious mind.History is there to teach us our mistakes, not to feed us into the frenzy of the same tired ones, and maybe invent some new sins.It is only by recognizing our common humanity and moving politically to enhance our souls that people can survive on this planet.Anything else makes us the monsters our American history books (Sic all human history books) deny we are.Only the concept and actualization of Good make us at all better than the most rapacious carnivore.They have the excuse of lacking a conscience, we don't.
fini on this one.
This whole thing strikes me as "blaming the victim." This fucker says a whole bunch of anti-mexican stuff and then we defend that guy because some guy in the audience said "fuck America?" Give me a break. If he was a comedian worth his salt he wouldn't have to go on a anti-mexican tirade he would have something clever to say.
The truth of the matter it was Mexico once and it was a bloody, awful war, land that makes up 1/3 the United States, stolen. Just like we stole lots of land, enslaved Africans, exterminated Indians. So, what because Mexicans come here for a better life they have no right to complain? Nice. So, now we are ok with manifest destiny, it is ok to say, hey its ours, thank you deal with it. You have no right to complain because you might have the possiblity of getting a job, despite a real unemployment rate of 16.2 percent. Hey your country is worse. So there!
This is how racism works, you pit two, maybe three groups against one another to support the patriarchial view that everyone should shut their mouth, "fuck you for complaining." Blacks, Mexicans, Indians, and groups historically pitted against one another so nationalism can thrive and we can say we're better than you. Our country is the best! And if you want to come here you better shut up or there is the airport!
This moron went on a racist rant against Mexicans. Plain and simple and anybody in the audience defending themselves were doing so not by some political agenda, but because they were offended. Period.
It's unfortunate that people have to get all rowdy over what some dumb comedian says. It only goes to show how deep recism is embedded in the United States. what a shame!!!!
What did the mexican say to the house that fell on him?
Get off me home's
How do you stop a Mexican tank?
Shoot the guy pushing it.
Why doesn't the border have electric wires?
Because Mexicans will steal the electricity to power their house.
Kat Wiliiams is a comedian not a sociologist.Bottom line is statistically the Hispanic population (the word Palistinian used to be the Jews, what's in a name, apparently everything to the name and namers)Manifest Destiny used to be a good thing, God used to be feared first, not loved.The elasticity of the greatest invention in the history of the world, a government by the people and for the people will be tested as the politics and physical color of the USA changes in the next half century.Whites are at zero population, Blacks not to far behind.Will we become South Africa or will we respond to change, evolve and become the "city on the hill" that the world needs.As for Kat, the fact that he is confused as to who is the oppressor only shows he needs to grow more intellectually and spiritually, as we all do, to realize our potential and make this truly the land of the free.
Good job O&B.Way to get the ink flowing.Consider this training camp for the upcoming season.
First off I would not equate those in the audience the same weight Kat Williams should be given. They were being hated upon and then spoke probably irrationally and to offend him, not us. "Fuck America" has been a little too easy to say the last ten years. I have said it a lot, especially when we kill millions in other countries out of revenge and not sound foreign policy. That is a matter for another day. But, America has acted as irresponsibly in the last ten years maybe in any other generation, I could be playing hyperbole here since we did enslave millions of Africans for 400 years. But...I would also take issue with equating La Raza, open borders with the Christian fundamentalists...it is a false equivalency. It is like 9/11 truthers with birthers. Birthers have 14 members of Congress. 9/11 truthers are a joke on Bill Maher. It isn't the same.
Christian fundamentalists are represented in almost every GOP candidate (outside of Romney and Huntsman). They run the GOP. If you said La Raza or Open Borders to most people they would not know what the fuck you are talking about...they have no power in policymaking whatsoever. Secondly, you would be hard pressed to get a leader from La Raza to say "Fuck America." Maybe those that follow, but leaders of Latino movements are not that stupid. As opposed to the Christian fundamentalists. They are that stupid. I have seen the leaders of La Raza speak on the tele and they argue for a rational immigration policy, one almost signed into law by fucking George Bush. Open Borders is another matter. In theory I suppose I believe in that. "No human is illegal" is a something I live by. People coming to our country who have nothing somewhere else is obviously viewed through their eyes different than through our eyes. Especially when our own foreign policy keeps them in poverty in their own country, through trade agreements, like NAFTA, the agreement we signed with Colombia and Peru and how it is in our national interests (I.e. for corporations) to keep Mexico poor. But, it is untenable in the world we live by so we should have a sound immigration policy without hypocrisy.
We reep what we sow. I begrude noone for coming to our country to seek a better life. Sure, it should be done through legal channels, but if you don't get the hypocrisy out of the system then you won't ever solve the problem.
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, the blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned; the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."--William Butler Yeats
Believe when the Celtics were playing the Heat, I rooted for Pierce like he was John Starks. I do watch the Celtics play and admire their hardnose 90's era Knicks Defense. I also admire how they share the ball. As a Knicks fan I can only hope the Knicks learn some of that and can D'Antoni if he can't get that across to his team. @john.salois
Johnny my lad. Points aren't apportioned all at once. They are built up over time with the current livefyre blog system. Your passion and convictions are golden brother. I know your metal is quality just like T'Mans. T'Man's just been writing, replying, commenting and edumacting an ignant person like me for a very very long time here. Believe me and him started with nary a point and have built up plenty w/ the company of other bloggers and fanatics who frequent this place we call home during the season. So chime in some more bro. Soon you're points will equally your convictions. But you don't need livefyre or me to tell you that. Cheers! @john.salois
@Tman At the very end Sensei T'Man the common enemy is the very worst of ourselves, whether manifest in Kat's overreaction or the Mexican American's disrespect for a country that he lives in. That is never to say that Kat shouldn't defend a country he calls home. I've heard black bloggers say Kat has no right to do that b/c Blacks are still oppressed. News for all ya, quechua Indians fought to defend Peru in the war in the Pacifica against the Chilean invaders. Fought and gave blood and heart to a Nation that then treated them as 2nd class citizens as America still structurally to some extent does to my black brothers and sisters. Mexican fight and die for this country, boricuas, and all sort (even Arabs and Muslims) even if the society and Nation leaves alot to be desired it doesn't mean you don't defend it if it's home. It also doesn't mean you have no right to question it challenge it to become a better nation. Just b/c life blows sometimes. I don't stop living it. And when I perservere I find a gem. Like my Civil Right's heroes in the U.S. and in Peru and Mexico.
Johnny I respect your convictions. I don't share all points of view. Respect my right to have convictions.
@john.salois Kat went stupid. He should had stopped. But too steaming locomotives ran full throttle. One had a mike and didn't know when to check himself.
Hey man if I thought Like that. I'd say, "I'm going back to Peru and all whites in the Americas can get the F out." We can't undue history. Peru can't get back the lands lost to Chile (treacherous folks IMHO back then) w/o going to war again. What we can do now is oppose aggression and imperialism from the developed world. We can also question aggression and jabs from those who show no respect for a nation state. I don't like American politicians, I lament American Imperialism, I wish we had a multi party political system so the republicans couldn't stone wall. I wish the world were equal and we can all go wherever we want. It's not like that. that's why American's see the immigration issue different than folks from Latin America. A resolution will require some give and take and would have to result in a finally amnesty based on a reasonably apportioned lottery. The Chicanos shouldn't get everything they want and of the course Native Born americans will need to accept some resolution that means more Latinos in teh U.S. That's politics man. People have to give to get. But this time it should be final. IMHO!
Yes America is fucked up. But it's were we live and breath. If I go to Mexico and say fuck Mexico. The soldiers from the U.S. Mexican war should have taken all of Mexico from DF up. That's wrong. I don't like the big ugly American. But I don't care for the big ugly mexican or whomever. Respect where your at. Sure again that means criticize and help make it a better nation. No doubt.
@john.salois John Kat's joke about the Blacks going to Mexico if the Mexican's don't want it (leaving in droves I presume) was weak. Required to much thought. I don't think the joke was ill intentioned. heck I'd go to Mexico if the Mexicans left in droves. It's a beautiful country w/ a rich history and culture and great food. Pehaps that's what he meant.
I think the Mex -Am who replied w/ "Fuck America" and "This is all mexico" took the joke the wrong way. Kat only needed to remind that dude that it is now the U.S. Stop there. He went overboard w/ the slave labor wages worked by mexican landscappers. That was crass ghetto humor. Uncalled for. You got to stop the fire at some time.
@john.salois Fuckem if they can't take a joke! lol
Yes. Kat should have stopped at the defense of the U.S. He beyond that. Unnecessarily so. Though on the other hand some of those southwestern Mexican Americans are way too self righteous. I understood Kat's joke. Hey if Mexicans are leaving Mexico in droves I might go there. LOL! But it required alot of thought to get that joke. Hence it was weak. Anyhow what's good w/ the NBA got any word on when the lockout will end JTS? @slapdoghoops
LOL! Peaceman to the rescue. The only rule for a comedian is to be funny. You know crass humor is just part of life. Now if that crass humor follows you every where you go and with everyone you meet and effects how you treat them, there's a problem. @Peaceman
Thanks. Yeah. Kat did some dumb things. We'll take mexico if the mexicans don't want it. Was a weak joke. His defense of U.S. is ok. Hey if some one says Fuck Brooklyn the Bronx or some place that's made you you. What you gonna do. The stupid rip at slave wage mexicans in landscaping was dumb. that required some, hey I'm clueless. I gotta burn and learn apology. But yes. The write up got the juices flowing. We're to integrated int his world to hate and wish ill on others. We can only offer up the best of us as an example and the firmness of our convictions in self defense if indeed challenged to submit. We should only yield to revelation and true friendship. Cheers to you T'Man and my boy John Salois. Boy balled in NYC while going to grad school a tough white kid from Boston worthy or my and the fanatics respect. @Tman
Lastly I stand by my statement. That to on the one hand talk about some purportedly pious human values (like the Chrisitan Fundamentalist) all the while celebrating non Christian peoples misfortune is as disgusting as talking up a storm about loving America, wanting to be part of America, calling up the American dream, all the while making Facebook statements about the decline of the U.S. (and it's effects on everyday Americans) with some degree of self righteousness to be equally lamentable and despicable. That doesn't mean don't question our politicians, business, ideals, why we reason or have a position about immigration, war, foreign policy. It just means try to be consistent. As consistent as (you are right) American should have been in it's relationship w Anahuac. But gladly for Now Latin America is no longer a pushover. Nor should it be. Cheers! @john.salois
You are right that it is lamentable the influence of the Christian right in our Political process especially the number of representatives they have congress. However, I disagree with you that the acts of rank and file Chicano/Raza/Open Borders activist should not be critique or put on the movements. It's up to the leadership of those movements to steer the rank and file from such extreme statements acts declarations stances. They fail alot. Also in my experience with actual Chicano activist, they are very clear about their long term goal to reobtain the Southwest for Mexico. They don't lollygag about it. They are racist in way even telling me a Peruvian (browner and more indian that their olive skinned arses) that Corn is superior to the potato and that the Mexica would have conquered the Inkas. They want the southwest for themselves. How about the Hopi, Zuni, Dine, Apache, Comanche, Black Feet and other indigenous groups that are part of the Southwest? In my humble opinion they are extremist. And believe me, in my interactions with open borders types they have often on their facebook comments spoken about the U.S.'s decline as a moral issue, implying the justness of a U.S. collapse. I just can dig that. I'm not down w/ that. If I champion more responsible leadership in Latin America (Anahuac actually since America is a European term) I do so for the U.S. For out politicians to be reeled in by term limits, that the Industrial Complexes (Military, Prison Industrial, Oil, Anti Canibis etc) and Corporate lobbies that dominate U.S. policy (making democracy a sham) be diminished or eliminated. Maybe then we can move towards harnessing the ingenuity and frontier spirit of smaller entrepenuers who might help us get out of oil dependency to the enrichment of Middle Eastern oil.
Lastly while lesser in influence than the Christian right, the collective or Chicano/Raza/Open Borders activist have had an influence. Do you believe that Bam through Jan would not lessen enforcement and prosecution of immigration/deportation cases? Sure it's a non act and not the Dream Act but it's Obama mind you. Also that coalition shouts down and shames anyone who criticizes a sweeping immigration reform. About %50 percent of Americans from South of the Border are not lock step in an open sweeping immigration reform, thought are shouted down w/ statements and ism/ist like self hating, racist etc etc. That doesn't work on me. Here's a link to the lessened enforcement Bam and Nan are taking to not doing http://www.boston.com/Boston/metrodesk/2011/08/immigration/xVwK5kIcuveuzkoAFlilFJ/index.html
John. If you know me by now. I would hope that you understand me as a reasonable person. You know as well as I do that I am not for the lopsided trade agreements that weak Latin American leadership aceded to despite the calls from their people that fair agreements be obtained. You should know by now that I was never for the asenine invasion of Iraq that has cost the lives of Iraqis, US Soldiers and demoralized our armed forces and national morale. There is clearly something inconsistent with those who are hard line about a reasonable solution to the immigration question. We both know that allot of migration is due to weak leadership in Latin America that has done nothing for their people in those respective Nation States.
But I do not think it is inconsistent to defend and advance responsible left and left of center leadership in Latin America and even a Latin American Union to rival the EU or the States, since the effect is to make Latin America more livable for the inhabitants of those parts of the world.
If you don't think Kat Williams joke was ill intentioned, well I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Cheap - it can take you to the Nets stadium!